How Amy Welsman Built Paume by Ignoring Hustle Culture

Everyone wants fast success. Amy built something designed to last.

In this episode of ICONIC, Jennifer Leigh is joined by Amy Welsman, founder and CEO of Paume, a premium hand care brand redefining everyday essentials through thoughtful design, sustainability, and innovation.

After helping scale Knix into one of Canada's most recognizable consumer brands, Amy took everything she learned about branding, retail, and entrepreneurship to create Paume, a company rooted in purpose instead of pressure.

Together, Jennifer and Amy explore what it really takes to build a product-based business, navigate retail partnerships, and create a brand that stands the test of time. This conversation isn't about chasing overnight success. It's about building something meaningful enough to last.

In this conversation, Amy shares:

• Why playing the long game leads to stronger businesses

• How her experience at Knix shaped the way she built Paume

• What founders should know before launching a product-based business

• Why thoughtful branding, partnerships, and patience are essential for sustainable growth

If this episode resonates with you, follow ICONIC and leave a review.

Connect with Amy

• Instagram: @mypaume

• Website: mypaume.ca

Connect with Jen:

• Read Iconic Magazine®: becomingiconic.co/magazine

• Join House of Her, our exclusive membership community: becomingiconic.co/houseofher

• Watch on YouTube: @theICONICmagazine

• Follow on Instagram: @iconicmagazine__

Transcript

Speaker: 0:14

This week on ICONIC, we have Amy from Paume, who started her business on the cusp of the pandemic, but was inspired through having her first child. She started a hand care business to treat our hands with the respect and beauty and luxury that they deserved. It is the most phenomenal conversation around the risk and reward of having a product-based business, what it took to get it off the ground, and the way she has built the business with the long game in mind. Avoiding all of these conversations around fast cash and fast success. She is a perfect example of what it takes to build a legacy business. Amy from Paume. I'm so glad you're here. Welcome to ICONIC. I would love to dive in because I feel like of all people, I am so curious around your brand and how it developed. I also know there's a bit of an origin story that got you to this place where you launched something so beautiful from the inside out. You started as the first employee of Knix. That is incredible to build something like that, even from the ground up. Would you mind sharing what that experience was like and how you, or maybe what you learned through that experience that has been able to be leveraged through Paume? Yeah, I spent almost five years there from pre-launch all the way until, you know, a certain revenue mark. And we, it was a wild ride, you know, I think a lot of us think of the brand today in its status now, which is like this huge Canadian success story. And to be there on the ground floor and to like be in the trenches to get it to that point was a hugely valuable experience and formative for me. I learned so much kind of as Joanna's like right hand for many of those years. And we were on the road together travelling and just really looking to like sell and get traction and get those customers and, you know, teach everyone why they needed this product. And I would say things have changed so much from a marketing standpoint from those days. Like a lot of things have changed. However, you know, I got to learn from a true brand master, you know, someone who like really all she thought about was our brand and our community and her mission. And that was really inspiring and helped kind of lead me on my own journey. And I knew when I left in 2017, I believe it was, that I did want to launch something on my own. I just didn't have the idea yet, but it was truly formative. Also great to be able to work in that kind of pressure cooker as not the founder, like as the sidekick in a way, because naturally the stakes just aren't quite as high. And I was able to really learn and like make mistakes and like figure things out without the pressure of being the founder. So to go into launching my own brand, having had that experience was hugely beneficial. Well, and I think for me too, it really screams that entrepreneurship was for you because I imagine not all of it was glitz and glamour. I imagine you watch Joanna go through a lot and to witness someone in building and growing and scaling something like Knix, you would either be turned on or completely turned off. And so that's fascinating to me as well, that that would be something exciting because again, like that's not an easy feat to hit the ground running and scale. Yeah, no, I think I was a little insane. I mean, I think all founders have that little insanity gene in them. Yeah, you'd think after it, I'd kind of be ready to like go corporate or take some time but you know I did actually take a couple years. I did some consulting work and again I didn't have the idea yet so I was sort of just like letting you know things come to me and like you know I did a lot of travelling and then I ultimately had my first baby in 2019. It was through that experience that the idea for Paume came to me. So it was sort of this, I kind of, I did have a period of decompression and then kind of like recalibrated and then was ready to dive back in when the idea came. The interesting part too is you didn't force anything. So that's what I'm hearing from you. It wasn't through force or pressure that, you had this intuitive hit, like I'm gonna do this for myself, but you took the time to let it land. And I feel like that's a lesson in itself because a lot of times, especially women making pivots or career moves coming into entrepreneurship, there's this level of pressure they feel of like figuring it out and having it all figured out and doing things in a way that maybe looking back, you wish you had taken a little bit more time or maybe you would have made a different decision. So I really honour that as a lesson that you're sharing as well. I think, yeah, I think particularly in my story, it was very much like a gut led experience. It was as simple as, you know, I'm a new parent. I have, you know, the stress of having a newborn baby that was just like, it cried a lot. I was alone a lot. My husband was on the road a lot during that period. So I was often alone with the baby in the first year and I was really overwhelmed. It was not like necessarily a story of like blissful early motherhood. And I was using products that I was dissatisfied with and I was like seeking something better. And it was really as simple as that. It was like, oh, why is no one making like a really beautiful, skin nourishing, sustainable hand sanitizer, which is sort of the origin of the brand. But, you know, it was really that simple. And it was like, why is no one doing this? I should do this. And then it was sort of, one thing led to the other. And I do think that's kind of, continued I mean I've continued to run the business that way and in a way like kind of letting my gut guide me obviously like taking all the learnings and all that but I think it's important. It is and, you gave space and in space comes our greatest ideas but it feels sometimes counterintuitive or counterproductive because we are so accustomed to filling space with doing doing doing and being a new mom. I remember those days as well. There's so much that is unknown. It's very vulnerable and it almost feels like a fragile time in life because you don't know who you are as a mom you don't know this baby very well and so there's this this whole dynamic happening. But I really love how that moment in your time was what sparked your brand because that's a really beautiful story to be able to tell your child one day too, right? It's like, because of you. Yeah, totally. Yeah and I think, I mean ultimately it was like that idea and then this was pre-pandemic, right? So like very different time. I think a lot of us really like, this is 2019. And then when the pandemic hit, that was really like the push I needed. I think a lot of entrepreneurs can relate to this idea of like, you know, you have your idea and you're simmering with it. And you're like, oh, it's such an overwhelming prospect to like actually go for it. And I think it took me, you know, six to eight months. And then when the pandemic hit, it was like, oh, wow, there's like signs, external signs telling me I need to do this. So that was the push I needed. Seizing opportunity and having that action taking, which I'm sure you learned through being, you know, part of Knix and watching that you have to live and breathe the brand, especially in the beginning, in order to get it off the ground. So you saw a gap. This is fascinating to me because you've done it so beautifully and I want to dig into all the parts of everything. But you saw this gap of hand sanitizer and why is it so strong and chemically based and just almost medicinal, isn't it? And you looked at that and thought, why isn't anybody making this in a really pure, beautiful way? So is that something you feel like you've even led in terms of the like the hand care industry of filling a big gap that nobody else has done? I don't know anybody else who has done this before. Well, at the time, certainly. I mean, I think the pandemic did change a lot. It changed the category profoundly from when the initial idea came to me and from when we launched our first product. The category was very different. You know, we had a lot of big beauty brands like making hand sanitizer just to suit the demand at the time. Right. And we had some brands come up. I mean, there's certainly some other brands doing similar things, but we remained really unique in our formulation, in our packaging. And then obviously since then, it's been like the sanitizer was a jumping off point for us. It was like, okay, let's create this new category. Let's disrupt this product. And then let's look at hand care as the category. Because talking about white space, like, it's funny. We all think about, like there are a million hand creams, but like it's actually a very vacant category as far as like leadership. There's no one coming out and saying like, we're going to take care of your hands, you know, other than us really. So we remain pretty much the category leader and the pioneers of the category today. It all started with the sanitizer. We were able to maintain that relevancy like post pandemic and, you know, continue to like, you know, intrigue customers through other ways of just like, I think a lot of brands came out and they're like, you need this product. Here you go. You know, slap a label, get a formula off the shelf. You know, let's just like meet the demand, meet the demand. And in our case, I was like, no, no, we want to create a legacy brand. I want to do something really thoughtful and intentional. We had so many opportunities to cut corners because I had lots of pressure to get to market quickly. You did. Lots of pressure. And I was like, stop. No, we need to like, we need to do this right because that's what's going to keep us around in five ten years. And then again that kind of shift to hand care and what can we do there, to not only like raise awareness around the importance of a skincare routine for your hands and how our hands actually, are so exposed and they actually show the signs of aging a lot faster. There's that concern, but also they're like chronically suffering from something. Everyone I talk to is like I have eczema or I have like, my nails are really brittle or I've got like peeling cuticles or I've got you know lacerations because I'm a nurse and I'm like constantly washing my hands or whatever might have you, we have products to like suit all those needs but, whereas before you thought about hand care it was like a hand cream made by a fragrance brand. That's right. And if you look to the ingredient panel you'd be like, this is fine you know we're really focused on ingredients and like intention around taking care of your hands and really like, you know the efficacy of the ingredients and the products. But yeah, it all started with a hand sanitizer. That's so amazing. You talked about pressure at the beginning. Was that through investors? Was that through team? Who was kind of giving you that pressure? I think it was like anyone in my ecosystem. Like everyone I spoke to was just sort of like, oh my God, well, everyone needs it now. Like just even myself, you know, reading the news and seeing the shortages of this product across the world. And it was just such a crazy time in many ways. But yes, I did. I had some investors. But a lot of my investors who came on board really, they really trusted the vision that I had presented to them. And I think they really believed in what we were doing. And they really wanted me to think long term. So I think it wasn't that people were, you know, saying, you know, why don't you just go and rush this along? It was more just like general feeling of like, oh my God, the moment is here. And like, we got to capitalize on it. But ultimately, we did, I think, you know, the right thing. And we took our time and we made the product that's still around today. Yeah. And it shows such beautiful leadership because I can imagine, well, most of us, we feel like time is limited. If not now, when? And, you know, we're just rushing again, going back to that pressure feeling of pushing things forward, but sometimes before they're ready. I just really applaud you because to be able to stay grounded and steady and think long-term versus, oh my gosh, this is the only moment, that must have taken some grit. Yeah, some discipline. Yeah discipline, good word. Yeah, no I think for sure, I think there's always that pressure and you have to just think long term and it's, by the way that pressure never ends like that certainly was of a time because of the pandemic but even today you know. We come up with a new product idea and it's like, oh my God, let's do it, let's go, and then it's, you know, we work with our chemists in the lab and they're like well it's gonna take you know nine months to a year. And it's like, oh my gosh. But by the time it comes and it's ready to go and you're ready to bring it to market, like you know that you've ticked all the boxes and done it methodically. And that's ultimately going to be the product that's going to stick around. Because I think if you just rush too much and you're not thoughtful about it, that's where you can run into trouble because it's really expensive too, launching products. I bet it is. I bet it is. Yeah, big costs. Let's talk about that. Like what came first for you? Because when I look at your brand, was it custom ingredients and formulations? It was. Wow. So was that the first thing that you had to see through or did it kind of all happen together? What was the first thing that you did? It's a good question. It was such a blur. I was all on my own. I had no one helping me for the first six to eight months. So I had to wear hats that I had never worn before. Like I literally had no idea. I came from like apparel, like I had no idea how to like make a product. So I did a lot of, you know, Googling, cold calling, hoping someone would like listen to me and do what I needed them to do. But we, yeah, we worked with a lab. I would say like the, you know, the formula probably came first, but then simultaneously I was working on the visual story and the branding, which was also done. I mean, a lot of brands traditionally will hire a big agency to come and like put together this beautiful brand book and portfolio. And it's very costly. And, but you get what you pay for, I will say. But in our case, I really had quite a strong vision of what I wanted it to look like. And I worked with a freelancer who, you know, kind of held hands with me. And, you know, she was quite inexpensive, even though her experience was incredible. She'd work with like tons of brands and she was extremely talented. And she and I worked together over that first six month period and you know it was a very collaborative experience. It wasn't like her presenting to me and then me it was very much this collaboration. So I feel like emotionally connected to that journey too. And I knew I had a strong point of view about what I wanted it to look like and it was really important the, to me, packaging and visual storytelling is just as important as what's inside, to be honest. I agree. And for us, like, I held the chemist to a really high standard on the formula, knowing I wanted this to be a very unique formula, which it remains to be today. But then also that visual side, I wanted it to just really be very special. Because at the time, too, we knew we were, like, kind of pioneering a new category. And I just knew how important it was to tell that story, you know, visually too. Is it all proprietary now? Do you have, you know, the formulations all protected? Is it all this like Oh, good question. Yes. Well, we have a partnership with our filler who we've been working with for many, many years. And we, yes, it's all like licensed to us exclusively. We actually do own most of our formulas as well. So it's a balance, but that's something in like the beauty industry that's always like up for discussion. And if you have like a patented technology, that's very different. But when you're working with labs to create like unique formulas, the lines are a little blurrier. Yes, I bet. But very important to have your ducks in a row in that regard. Yeah and to protect this like beautiful legacy brand that you're building. That like popped up for me. It's like, you know, sometimes people get onto a good thing, which you built and suddenly now the lines do get blurred. So to be able to stand behind that formulation, knowing that this is unique and special to us is a part of your brand story. Talk to me about the brand. I'd love to know how you chose those things because you were so involved. And I think another important piece, and I just want to kind of pause here for the listeners. When they hire, we do branding through our agency. And what we do that's very different, unique, and special is involve the founder. Because my experience and why I started an agency in the first place, was so many women would come to me and we needed one. They'd go out to these great agencies and they were delivered something that just didn't even feel closely aligned to the person or their vision. It was really fascinating to me. And again, very costly. And I just got heartbroken over and over and over. For them and also for the work that we were doing, so I just started using my own team. But the one thing we do is involve that founder in all aspects because I don't know if everybody understands, and this is why I wanted to kind of stamp this point, is the importance of being involved in the development of your brand. It has to express your values and the longevity and almost like a timelessness that the brand can grow and develop and continue to, shape shift but that that brand the beauty, the font, the color remains that through line, despite what may happen in the future. So how was that for you? Like, how did you choose the different aspects? I know it was such a, it feels like so long ago. I mean, it was. And it was so fun in many, many ways, but also like painful in other ways, too, because like you just want you want it to be perfect and you obsess. I would say for me, a lot of it was just driven by my own kind of taste and like and you know I wish it was, in a way, like I think when you do work with an agency, you get more of that, I guess, like market trend infusion, which I think is extremely valuable. I think in our case, it was like, I love this clay color. I wanted it to feel very organic. I didn't want any white or black. Everything was sort of like off-white, natural looking. And the whole concept for the sanitizer was that you know especially during the pandemic you know we're going to bring like an emotional element to a very sterile category. When you originally yeah think about sanitizer it's like I have germs on my hand, I'm going to put it on, gross, medicinal, okay I'm good now. Whereas for us it was about like, why don't you clean your hands in a way that makes you feel good and that gives you a sensorial experience and that is something that you look forward to like a moment of self-care? And then you can connect with people around you and not feel concerned and not worry about you know the downsides of that especially at the time. Right. But talking about like bringing the founder into the story and into the, development of the brand I think, that was a big factor for how we set ourselves apart in the category when we launched because when we launched there were a million sanitizers. Yeah. Unlike when the idea came to me. And from day one, we learned really quickly that it was going to be very difficult to come out and just try to sell this to everybody. You know, this is like another sanitizer, but it's like really great in here, all the reasons. But people were kind of had been hit over the head by sanitizer through that period. It was not as easy as, you know, you'd think it would be. You know, it's like launch a sanitizer in a pandemic, like a no brainer. So we really went back to that storytelling in my experience. And the reason we went back to that origin story of like, why are we doing this? And we talked a lot about early motherhood. And that became like our unique point of difference in the market because I wasn't trying to sell the product to everyone on the street yet. And this is a lesson I learned at Knix as well. It's like focus, focus, focus. If you can find a very particular customer that you know this is like a no-brainer product for, get them on board, and then spread out. Yes. So for us, it was new moms, new parents. I was like, this is why I created this product to begin with. The pandemic is sort of a secondary thing that happened to like float in. Right. Which was in some ways good, in some ways bad. But the point was, we went back to that story of like, you're a new parent, you're overwhelmed, you need hand-cleaning products, you're concerned about germs, but you want something that makes you feel good that you know you can use around your baby and that like gives you that moment of self-care on a chaotic day. And that was a lesson I learned at Knix too, it's like, we weren't out there selling period underwear to the masses in the beginning. It was like, let's sell this to very particular types of athletes who we know need seamless leak protection, you know, let's go very niche and then, and then we spread from there so that was a big lesson I brought with me, and now of course we've branched out since our new mom days. You know, like, yes, we still have great products that we sell to new parents, but we're obviously like much broader than that now. So there's such a resistance around niching. A lot of women are like, well, especially the ones I talk to, like, I just I know I can help so many people. And I feel like that resistance is around, well, if I just focus on one person, what if I miss an opportunity? And I love that you shared, you know, what actually I learned is if you focus on one particular person, it's from there that things grow. What would be your best advice to someone thinking about a product-based business right now. They think, oh, I could help everyone with the product base. Like, how do they choose that first person? Is it from that lived personal experience, the seed? I think that's a great place to start. I think a lot of founders, when they come up with these ideas, usually it's based on a personal experience. You know, it's like they've been through, like, for example, like totally making this up. But, you know, they've been through like a particular medical journey. And they saw a need for this product during their own journey. And now they've made it. And it's like, and yes, that product that you created might actually benefit everybody. However, in the early days, like tell that story, get that person because those are the people that become your like brand fanatics. You know, those are the people you get in from day one because they see themselves in your story. Yes. They immediately resonate with what you're making and they like, and it just instantly improves their life. And then from there they go out and tell other friends and like communicate it and you get this organic traction from that and you get these like really loyal fans. Like, we've had people that have bought our products since day one and proudly carry their like original travel bottles that they bought in 2021 and it's always such like it's so meaningful for me as a founder to see those people like sustain their love for the brand, but niche is not something to be, afraid of. I mean, we've built an entire brand around niche. I mean, the number of people who've said to me like, oh, it's quite a niche category or like, you know, investors are like, yeah, so it's very niche. Let's talk about that. And it's like, yes, but there are also like millions and millions of people and there are countless number of brands who've built huge businesses off of one product, you know, one product that's like, and yes, maybe it's niche, but I think, again, you can't be everything to everybody. But I do feel that time and money and all the things required to build these brands will help you get to the masses eventually. But out of the gate, you have to focus because it's just too expensive. You have to find hooks, ways in, ways to resonate with people. And often it's through personal storytelling that achieves that. Yeah. And that actually draws me into a question I wanted to ask you. It was around investment. Were there times at the beginning where you just thought, I'm in over my head? Like the cost must have been quite extraordinary. You had investors, but I think sometimes people think, oh, you had investors, you had no skin in the game. No, I'm certain you had a lot of skin in the game. So was there ever a time where you worried, you panicked, you wondered, am I in over my head? And I ask that question because I feel like we need to be honest around these conversations. I was asked yesterday on a podcast, what would you say to somebody that has zero followers and zero money to invest? And I was like, I don't know how we start, I mean zero followers that's a different, that's easy. But no, no investment it would be, it's just like, that's gonna take a lot of time. So was there a point, like talk to those women out there that are maybe afraid to start their brand or afraid to start their product because they're worried about the cost. Yeah I mean it's very costly and it's funny, I wish I wish I was a more inspiring, what's the word? People often come up to me at events and stuff, and they're like, how did you do it? How did you get started? Should I do this? I have this idea. And I'm not the kind of person that's like, follow your dreams, do whatever you do, and then you'll be successful. I am very blunt. And often I say, you have to be a very particular kind of person. You have to have very particular kinds of circumstances to do this successfully. And it is anything but easy. And I don't recommend it to like a lot of people just like as a baseline. However, I will say just on your question around investment I mean, so no matter what, taking on money to me actually raises the stakes by a massive amount, because you suddenly are now beholden to other people and for me that was like a huge leap. I remember, so I did a friends and family round out of the gate. I raised a couple hundred thousand dollars from some like very supportive people, mostly friends and family. And it wasn't until I did our first big raise in 2021 where I brought in a million dollars from like more angel type investors. And there were countless times during that raise where I looked at my husband and I was just like, we can shut this down. Like we can actually, it's not too late. Like we can, we can just say, you know what? Nevermind. We're not going to do it. And I'm just going to roll this thing back rewind time and go back to, you know, doing something else. And there are many times and many setbacks in the production process, getting the product to market. Like so many times where I was like, well, I had like a self mantra. I was like, if this all falls apart tomorrow, it's like, it's not the end of the world. And like, that was a coping mechanism. I had to think that way. But as far as personal emotional investment, I did also invest personal dollars because I didn't have a choice. And also the emotional investment was huge. So I would just say, you know, whether you have investors or not, the stakes are so high and it's not for the faint of heart. However, I think, you know, in life, you know, some of the most successful people are the ones that like take that shot. And I think because I had been through it with Joanna and like I had seen like her grit and what it took for her to get to where she had you know ultimately got to, it kind of, it did inspire me and also like kind of say like all right if I can just kind of power through and do, and listen we're not even close to like reaching that success that she's achieved, like we're still years away from that. But you know we're on a path and we're, we're doing some things right. You are. Well, you know, for me, I'm actually quite motivated by accountability. So I hear your story. Although I don't share that same storyline, I often think like, who would I be in that scenario? And I think having that type of responsibility will do two things. It can either totally wreak havoc on your nervous system where, again, it's like what you said, a particular type of person. Some people wouldn't be able to hold that type of responsibility but then there's some of us out there that, it's like, there's no back door and so we've got to make this work. I appreciate that type of outlook so much. I don't see it as often in service-based businesses because they don't have as much skin in the game, would you agree? Yeah I mean I think, and though I admire like anyone doing any kind of business whether it's product-based or service like I have so much respect for, I'll just say that baseline. But I will say there's something particularly risky because of the capital investment in a product-based business. I remember writing those checks in the early days. Just for context, we hemorrhaged money for years. There's a reason we had investors because we needed to invest to build momentum. And it takes a lot of, the big misconception out there is that. When you see successful brands, they must be super profitable and like you know all the things and it takes years of burning a lot of money and doing a lot of testing to get to profitability. So I couldn't have done it without my investors. But yeah, you really, the accountability is huge there and no matter who it is whether it's like my cousin or, you know some really amazing angel or like Michele Romanow or Joanna or whoever is on my cap table, like everybody matters. Everybody put in money and put their faith in me. And that to me, like that's what keeps me going, honestly, more than anything. Yeah. It's like doing right by them. So yeah. I love that. I love that because they believed in you. And sometimes we need other people's belief for them to see the vision alongside of us because we're not always full of personal belief when we don't know if it's actually going to be the vision that we have. And so to be surrounded by women, I'm imagining it's a lot of women, a lot of women who believe in you and see what you see. It would have been great comfort, I imagine, during some times where you were feeling maybe a little wobbly. Absolutely. Yeah. I think you need, any founder needs external validation. Yes. Whether it's like, it could be, you know, a press article. It could be an investor call where someone's patting on the back. I mean, we all need that, I think, in general. But it's most important because, like, the amount of imposter syndrome that we're all experiencing is, like, particularly high. So anytime you get those external validations, it fuels you. It does. Yeah. What was your most expensive lesson? Oh, God. I mean, the amount of packaging snafus that have happened over the years, all starting originally with like Health Canada, changing its rules around how you communicate sanitizer warnings on their labels when we had already printed all of our stuff and like, you know, things like that. Out of the gate like again talking about kind of wanting to really get to market and having this date in mind and feeling like an amount of pressure to get there. You know we made certain decisions on packaging that like we then had to kind of band-aid later on and anytime you have to band-aid or, reprint. I mean we've made mistakes, I had a yeah we've had some mistakes where we've had to do some redos and it's always so painful. But it's fact of life and like we're a small team, we're only six people which like for our size is. That's small. I think something to be proud of. I have an incredible team, like I have like six, well including myself, but like five incredible humans who are all like so invested and so amazing and so smart. And they're all women like under the age of 32. They're like my coven and they're, yeah they're all really invested. But like again, with that amount of people like mistakes happen and like we just have a a team culture of like, shit happens, pardon my french. And you know we don't spend time on blame and, we just focus on solutions and we've all made big mistakes, all of us and myself being probably the biggest of that. So I've made, like I always say that. I'm like, this is a pretty small mistake when I think about the number of mistakes I've made personally in this business that have cost us a lot of money. So I think we take comfort in that. But yeah, so everything's costly. It is. And what a beautiful culture you've built. I feel like if we have this team that feels like they can try different things and take some risks, knowing that the leader is going to applaud and also be okay if things don't go as planned, allows that team to really foster their brilliance and their talents versus feeling like if I make a mistake, I'm going to be reprimanded or lose my job. I mean, imagine showing up to work every day on pins and needles. Instead, what it sounds like is they show up with the smile on their face and go, what can we do today? Because you allow them to be, well, to experience themselves and be themselves within the team. Yeah, I would hope so. I hope that they feel that way. I mean. The pressure gets to all of us. I think we have, like, periods of time where we're feeling a little less, like, smiley coming to work if it's, like, a really intense period. But I would say generally, yeah, like, my hope is that the team feels that they can take risks and that we're all, like, I think the fact that we're so aligned in our hopes and dreams for the brand, that, like, I know everyone's decisions are always with, like, the best intentions. So it's hard to like see beyond that. It's like, okay, we're all doing our best here. And everyone just works really hard. So it's like we don't have any. We're like a very, very well oiled machine. I love that. Yeah. Do you ever worry about somebody leaving? All the time. That's my biggest fear. Me too. That's why I asked you. I'm like, hold on. It kind of sounds like you and I have similar teams. And I think that's something. Oh, it's getting me a little emotional. Like I worry about that. Oh, yeah. I mean, there are days where I'm like, oh my God, if someone left, I'd be like, I don't think I could carry on without them like, I can't imagine doing this. I mean, we've had a team that's really been slowly built since I launched the business. I originally had like a lot more consultants around me because I couldn't afford full time people. And then as we started to add to the team, like I haven't had anyone leave. I haven't had to fortunately let anyone go. So we're like, we are like a core team. People have been working with me for five, six years, and I feel a responsibility for them. But also, I feel like, yeah, if any of them were to leave, I can't imagine. There's no single person on the team where I'm like, I guess if they left, we'd be okay. I guess we'd be okay. But I'm like, no, no, they're vital. So yeah, no, biggest fear keeps me up at night, for sure. Yeah, and what do you do to continue fostering? I know for myself, I really make sure that I'm very grateful. I give lots of recognition. We're all words of affirmation, girls. So that makes life really easy. So we all know, just keep telling each other how much we love each other and appreciate each other. And it does keep the connection strong. But there are times when it's not easy. There are times in the business where, you know, things aren't going as planned or we're going through a bit of a wobbly season. And keeping that culture high during those times, I believe, is really about that foundational, almost like a family unit. Because if they've been a part of it, they'll see it through versus I think a lot of people who come on as contractors, they don't have that same devotion. And so it's easy for them to be like, oh, can't be bothered. I'm moving on. So I'm with you. I love having full time, I don't even like calling them employees, team members, who wake up every day and are so excited to build the mission alongside of us. Absolutely. Yeah. I think there's a few things founders can do also. And this is a lesson I learned at Knix as well, is like, don't be afraid of like giving a piece of the pie to the people that work on your team because like ultimately, I know for a fact - for a fact - that if these people weren't around me, we would not be where we are today. Like there's like no way to, yeah there's no way to argue against that. So the way I also, like think what helps with retention too is, and keeping people like motivated, is giving equity and making sure that they feel like there on this journey. I mean that's how I felt at Knix. I knew that I was like a part of something and that I was ultimately, like my success would be a financial success hopefully in the future. And that was huge for me. So I think like my biggest advice to founders as I like talk more earlier stage is like yeah, make sure you build in an options plan, like reward people. Like, give them that sense of belonging to the larger mission. I agree. Because then it's not just for us that they show up every day. It is for us, yes, and the vision and the leader, but also for themselves. And that is, I believe it, it's what keeps people motivated when maybe they're not feeling total satisfaction in their job. Because it's naive to think that every day someone's going to wake up. I don't love my role every single day. There are a lot of days I want to crawl in a hole. Yeah, some days I'm just like, oh my gosh, can we just hide? But as founders, you and I both know, we can have moments where we can curl up with a weighted blanket and take a minute. But that just can't last very long when we're leading a big vision and a team and community. And you have product inventory, all these things. There's so much on the line. And so, you know, but that's choice. I don't say that in some way of like, boohoo, poor me. I actually love it. I love the accountability and responsibility to seeing this through. Yeah yeah, no absolutely I think it's a balance of like yes you also have to find people that are like self-motivated and there's a certain type of person, as there are founders types, there are certain people like built for early stage brands and businesses because it requires a tremendous amount of grit and resilience and all of that. So it's about finding those right people, but then once they're in your world like making them as happy as possible you know through, yes, affirmation but also you know compensation. Especially, the other thing too, is as you get bigger, like a lot of my employees in the early stages, like came on and like I literally couldn't afford to pay like a proper salary. And options became kind of like part of that comp. But as we grow, it's like every time I have an opportunity to give you a bump, like I will give it to you. And that becomes this like kind of consistent motivator as well. Congratulations. Like, that's beautiful. In a world where I find I witness so much take, like, what can I take? How much can I get in order to move my brand, my mission forward? What I'm hearing from you is how much can I give while moving Paume forward? And that is obviously a big component to having this team stay with you from the beginning and to have this culture where they wake up every day excited to be with you around the boardroom table. It's a big deal. Yeah, it's been great. Well and it yeah they're just i just see them all as like so vital to all this so. I'm the same, I'm just like don't ever leave me. This is probably codependency and it's probably not healthy but at the same time I know when I've got a good thing. And I definitely know I have a really good thing. So great. I'm glad I asked you because sometimes you don't have those peers that you can have these kind of conversations with and those fears that we have and we sometimes feel alone in those fears and then for you to be like, me too, I'm like oh thank God. So much of that, yeah. Okay so talk to me about this amazing expansion into Ulta. How does one do that? How did that unfold? Talk to me about this experience. It was kind of like a fairy tale. Honestly, like so much of what we've done over the years, has been because of like us manifesting it and making it happen and like going and doing it, I will say like most of the things that we've accomplished as a brand and there's been a lot of manifestation. In this case honestly it was like a real serendipity where like we just woke up one day to an email from the body care buyer just being like, hey we're building out hand care we don't have any hand care. We love what you're doing. Let's have a meeting. And it was so crazy. It was wild. Like my head of wholesale, she was on the email. Actually, I think she got the email. I think they emailed our like info @, honestly. It was like a generic inbound. And she sent it to me. It was like, oh my God. So, and I loved, you know, this is talk about grit. You know, at the time I was like, okay, look, we'll set up a Zoom and we'll get this. She's like, no, no, no, we should go down to Chicago. And I was like, okay, cool. I don't know why, like, I need these people around me to be like, no, next level. Because I'm also like a mom of two young kids and I'm like never looking for an excuse to travel. Right. But, and she was like, no, we have our warehouse down there. Like, let's go meet. So we said, we wrote them back and we're like, great, we're actually going to be in the area in a couple of weeks. Like, would love to come in person. So we made that happen. We went and met with them at head office, which was so cool. And it was all very positive. And they, yeah, basically we got into the meeting and it just, they kind of had already made up their mind. For us, what was interesting was just, you know, the opportunity was really huge. They were willing to kind of let us determine what we were comfortable with, which I think that is a real, it can be a bit of a scary moment as a founder, because when you're dangled this massive golden carrot, it's very easy to want to bite it. But in our case, I knew that. So, the reason was is that they kind of said, like, we could launch you in 700 stores and online and we could do the whole thing. And my gut really was like, we're not ready for that. We're just not ready for that. What wasn't ready? Well, I mean, launching in 700 stores is like a huge financial commitment. It's a very high risk. It's like it's a huge deal. And I knew that, you know, we'd never worked with them before. And I just felt like and not that they were pushing it at all, but they were kind of like, let's talk about what you want to do. And what we decided on was online for the brand for the whole line. And then we would introduce an impulse like small hand cream in 700 stores at the checkout area. Good. So it kind of got us into this really high traffic area out of the gate, allowed us to test kind of that appetite and show online that traction before kind of like really jumping in the deep end. Because I think a lot of founders can make the mistake of like seeing that opportunity, being like, well, this is going to be the ticket for us to like, but it can also be your biggest downfall, if it doesn't work. And I'm very risk averse. In many ways, I'm very risky. It's funny I'm like a real conundrum. I'm like, I'm obviously very comfortable with risk compared to like most people, however when it comes to the business like you know now that I've built this thing that I'm very like protective of, I'm yeah I'm protective of what we have and I just I'm very very mindful of like who we partner with, how big we go, what are the risks we're going to take? Like, what is that profile? And anyway, they were great. They were like, cool, like, we'll do that. That sounds like a great place to start. We'll build up and, you know, we'll be building up to hopefully a store launch ultimately. But it was a really cool experience to go down there and also to be wanted. I think, you know as much, I've done lots of pitching in my day. I've you know, I've had a lot of no's and like all of that and it's gruelling. But to actually have someone like recognize what you're doing and come to you with an opportunity and kind of take a chance on you is a really great way to start the partnership because you just don't want to be in the room with these big retailers convincing them that you they should have your products. Like you want them to convince you in a way because it's like, you just want them to be really on board versus feeling like, okay, you have something to prove, you know? Oh, I like that. Yeah. I like that a lot. It's like you were being pursued rather than being the pursuer. And so you got to lead this alongside of them versus almost performing and convincing. Yeah. And I find when we start any relationship in that format, you kind of have to continue performing and convincing. It's almost like a toxic trait to a relationship. It's a power imbalance. Yes. Oh, that's a great way of putting it. Whereas if you're going into the meeting with more of like a dialogue, mutual respect, mutual interest, dialogue, you're just, I don't know, I prefer those kind of partnerships. And while we're building Ulta you know we have smaller retailers like Nordstrom for example, I love talking about them because they've been just such an incredible partner and they did require a little convincing in the beginning to be honest. I remember that was one we had to like you know really pitch for and, but they've been the most incredible partners and we've really proven out like this slow approach with them. It's like we were online for a year and then we had this amazing holiday program with them in all stores. And now we're launching into stores with full line. It's been this like very methodical, thoughtful process. And I think that's the way to do it versus jumping in where you're putting your whole business at risk with the financial, requirement for a huge retail partnership with like, you know, where you're facing a lot of headwinds. Like retail is really tough. Yeah. You have this constant about you of like pace and patience and strategy and thoughtfulness. It's so refreshing. It really is, Amy. Like it's so refreshing in a world that's just so hungry for success overnight so, like anxious about things, like the business proving that it's going to work to them that it has no breath. It's like, it can't breathe, we're suffocating the potential. And what I'm learning through you, which is just so beautiful because again the investment is higher, the risk reward is great but there's also this other piece that you know you're putting a lot of skin in the game without really knowing for sure but so to take that time and consideration, is such a valuable lesson for everybody watching. I hope they really understand that and feel that through you. Like even your persona, your aura is very welcoming and calm and peaceful. And so it's no coincidence that your brand runs that way. But I want to reflect that to you because, again, I see constant pressure, force. It has to happen overnight. And if it doesn't, then it's not working. And with you, it's one thing at a time. Let's just do this the right way because you're in it for the long game. Yeah. I mean, this is something I've learned. I really appreciate that you recognize that because I've really shifted my mindset tremendously over the last, I would say the last three years. I had like a breaking point two years in where we had raised all this money. We were spending it like drunken sailors. All I was thinking about was like, how do I build a business so we can do a series A? And then once I do the series A, how are we going to then get sold? And that was my, I had like the most backwards mindset. And it was partly learned from you know my experience at Knix where like you know we went through a very particular path to success, and we were following a play, it was like all about the playbook. You know and that was a word that was like, being thrown around a lot, and as a result I was not building a good quality business. Yes I had taken the time of course on the brand piece like that was always very precious to me, but as the way I ran the business day-to-day from an operations standpoint. It was incredibly pressurized decision-making and not thoughtful. I was like the opposite of what I am now. And as soon as I made that shift, it was like things just opened in a whole new way. It was like, wait, I'm not even going to think about a Series A. I'm going to think about let's build a good business where we're profitable and we're not drowning and where I can hire good people and where I can slowly build. I don't need the pressure out there to, and you see these stories of like, oh, they went from 1 million to 10 million in a year. And it was all amazing. It's like, that is just noise. And also I do think that it depends on the context in which you launch your brand. If you're in the US, very different story. There's like lots of capital being thrown around incubators, like, and also you only see the success stories. You don't see the thousands of other brands that are failing, like literally. Yes. And you get in this mindset and I feel like I was in this like really toxic mindset and I like was on the verge of a nervous breakdown and I had two young kids and I was like, this is not sustainable. So I really shifted. I was like, we're going to build a good business. I want to build a business that like if no one ever invests in us again and no one ever wants to buy us ever, that I will continue. This business can run itself. Yes. And that is what's opened up, opportunities, like and this was before Ulta, it's like then Ulta came and then you know Nordstrom's really grown and then we have investors now coming to us saying like we love what you're doing, look let's have a chat. And it's all very low pressure. I'm just like and now we're profitable and I'm able to like continue to pay my team and like grow our team and all of these things. That is what lets me sleep at night because I wasn't sleeping. I was so stressed out and it was affecting my, you know, my ability to like parent my children, like be a good partner. And like it was very high stress. So I think it took that experience and I've been able to really reset. And it's been the best thing for our business. And now, listen, like next year could be a whole new level of challenges. Like, who knows? Like, I'm not saying this will just continue in this beautiful, calm way. However I think, like just if I just reinforce that mindset and try not to get, listen day to day I can get stressed like trust me, I have lots of stress and my team will account for that, will you know validate that, it's like, I can be flighty. However long term, the mindset's calm cool and collected and I'm just, that's what's helping us. I love that. I do need to ask you before I let you go around being a mom, being a founder, and you just sort of alluded to the fact that there was moments where maybe you weren't as present as you wanted to be as a mom, as a wife within the family unit. And as a mom of four, I understand this. Like, you know, we have these children and we're doing it for them. And I think a lot of women, especially I really wanted to hone in on this, a lot of women listening are founders with children who still feel like potentially if I go all in on my business, somehow I'm taking from my kids. I'm not going to be the mom I want to be. I know that you can have both because I've lived it. I am an example of it, not in perfection, but I have had both and been wildly successful on both sides of who I am. Yeah. What is the best lesson for a mom listening right now who looks at you as someone like of inspiration, but she has that hum of, but what if this takes from my family? Yeah, I think it's like a daily, a daily thing women think about. Like we just naturally take on so much. We take on like the physical tasks, the mental tasks and the emotional ones. And we are hard, very hard on ourselves. Right. So, you know, I can relate to that for sure. I would just say, like, I think as my kids get older, like I have a, I now have a seven-year-old. I have a four-year-old too so she's not really there yet but my seven-year-old's starting to kind of, understand a bit more like what I'm doing and what I'm building and I think I can see that like pride in her and you know actually I had a family member too I have a cousin of mine who, very very top executive at Nike and she talks about like years where she like, you know was away all the time. She was like going back and forth to the west coast all the time and it was crazy and like she told stories. I hope she's okay with me telling this, but she has you know stories of motherhood where her daughter would just be like I just wish you were here, period you know like cruel, yes, you know like really like, stab in the heart. However as her daughter grew older and her son too I think they really started to be like wow like you set an incredible example for us and like you're so inspiring and like they were able to verbalize that pride in their mother and like, all of that guilt kind of was able to get a little washed away and that always like that keeps me going. Good. I'm very also fortunate because I work mostly at home, but I do work in the office, but I can be there for them. Like it's not, I mean, I almost feel like when you have a corporate job, it's like, and you're flying all over the place and you're like, that is so, I mean, at least for me, I'm not travelling as much. So I'm able to be physically present, but yeah, I'm not able to be good at anything. So I would say like my advice is just like, don't put pressure on yourself to be excellent at everything. You're just not going to be. One day you're going to be a way better CEO than you are a mom. And then the next day you're going to be a crappy CEO and you're going to be a really good parent, you know? And like you have to just be comfortable with kind of like that ebb and flow. And that's what I've learned is just like be more comfortable. But you never fully strike a balance, I don't think, and like feel really good about it. No. And I think, too, it's inevitable that we're going to have off days as a parent. So I don't want to blame the business. I feel like we can really get in this pattern of like, oh, because of the business, I'm not being as good of a mom. And I'm thinking, but without the business, we're still going to have days where we're not proud of the way we showed up or we wish we had done the day a little differently. Or we put our head on the pillow and go, wow, I didn't really connect the way I wish I had and didn't ask them about their day because I was preoccupied. That would happen with or without the business. Life lifes. Like we're distracted by all things. And so I think that that permission, too, of realizing it's not the business that takes you away. It's how you hold all that you've asked for. It's a choice every single day. I really appreciate, by the way, you're going into the best years. I hope so. The best years. I remember when my oldest daughter was five, my oldest son was three, and I sat down and I had finished a glass of wine. I put the glass down and I remember being like, [gasp] hold on. Like I sat here the whole time and drank this entire glass of wine and didn't get up. Nobody needed me. It was a turning point. So your four-year-old is on that precipice. And then it's like the joyful years. Oh my gosh. It's my favourite, like that five to 12 window. Well, my seven-year-old already, I'm like, oh, so dreamy. Like it just, I have two girls and I'm just like, oh, this is, this is the stuff. Cause my three - four year old's been intense. Yeah. They're difficult. They're a little hard. Threes, I never enjoyed the threes. Four out of four, did not. I could skip that anytime. Three and four no, I'll cut that from my. Why are you so whiny? I know. But five onward. Oh it's just like your life changes and they do look at you with rose-coloured glasses and you are the sparkle in their eye. And they will start to understand what you're doing Amy and they'll know that they were a part of it all and it was for them in the first place. And I'm looking forward to experiencing that with them because you're absolutely right. You're going to be the most exceptional example. And they chose you and they chose you for a reason. They're lucky girls. I hope so. I hope they see it that way. They will. They will. Well, thank you so much for being here. I feel like I have a bajillion more questions, but what I'd rather do is just you and I hang out and continue our conversations. But you really poured into the audience today and I really, really appreciate and value you being so honest and integral with our conversation because it was really good like soul food today. Yeah. Such a pleasure. Thank you for having me, Jen. Thank you.